Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: All of these great people who are doing great things, don't let the system define them. You are still better than they say you are. And it's really just coming to terms with that and coming back to yourself and realizing, like, you are strong, you are capable.
And that is most likely the reason that you are targeted. Not because you're weak, not because you're deficient, not because you didn't know what you were doing. It's because you were back better than everyone else. And they hate that.
[00:00:31] Speaker B: Welcome to skin group. I'm Dr. Ana Chacon, and today we have a very special guest joining us. Get ready for some expert insights you won't want to miss.
[00:00:42] Speaker B: If you can just introduce yourself, please. Yeah.
[00:00:45] Speaker A: I'm Brittany Bussey. I am a physician. I have worked in telehealth since 2016. I worked for a startup company back in 2016 developing really like, continuity of care for telehealth, mostly in the occupational health and workers comp space. And then I transitioned into launching my own company in 2021, which is a company that helps physicians find alternative revenue streams for their businesses. So we primarily do a lot of remote patient monitoring and chronic care management. And then starting last year, I launched a physician independent cooperative which helps physicians with independent practices save money on things like malpractice insurance and other forms of insurance coming soon in the next year, and just helps us network with each other and find other physicians launching practices and doing amazing things.
So we're all just kind of coming together so that we can really change healthcare.
[00:01:45] Speaker B: I do follow you a lot on LinkedIn and you have, you know, a lot to say on, on different matters. I'm also in telehealth as well.
Where did you grow up? Tell us the trajectory into becoming the physician that you are today. Residency and all that as well.
[00:02:02] Speaker A: So I grew up in Wisconsin, so Cheese State, and my mom is a nurse. So we had a lot of, like, medical textbooks and stuff around the house, and I was very interested in them. She's actually a psychiatric nurse by training, so I really found some, like, books really fascinating.
Just I loved how the mind works and doesn't work sometimes. It was really just such an interesting area for me. And I got really interested in helping people kind of navigate that space. Addiction, depression, things of that nature. So then I was accepted into medical school at the University of Wisconsin School of Medicine and Public Health, where I did my training. And when I did my clinical rotations, I found that I didn't really love psychiatry as much as I thought I was going to. Like a lot of medicine, it seemed like we were just kind of throwing drugs at the problem and seeing what sticks rather than trying to, like, really look at the root cause, like, talk to people about their trauma, talk to people about, you know, what happened to them and how they got here. And we just didn't have time. Right. Like, psychiatry, much like internal medicine, is like 15 minute appointments, maybe 30 minutes if you're lucky, and a lot of medication adjustment.
And I just did not find that fulfilling at all in practice. And so when I did my surgical rotation, I got a lot of gratification from like, patient comes in with a hernia, patient leaves with no hernia. And I was like, okay, well, like, here's a problem and then you fix the problem and then the patient goes home. And so I was really excited about that. So I applied and got into surgical residency at UC Davis here in Sacramento.
And I was in that residency training program for four years. And I was actually in a research year after my third year when I was diagnosed with bilateral retinal detachment.
So I had emergency surgery.
And after that, during my recovery, I just encountered a lot of discrimination and resistance from my program, and I just didn't feel the drive to continue. Like, I had dealt with sexual harassment and other kinds of discriminatory behavior in the program, and I just, I just couldn't see myself going back, you know, and I had to look at everything around me and say, like, do I continue down this path or do I make a choice for something else for myself and not really knowing what that something else was going to be. Right. Like, if you walk out of your residency, you're not board certified, you can't just go get another job, even though you have an MD and you're a doctor. So there's a lot of uncertainty there. So I had to make that decision.
I was able to get a job in urgent care. I applied to emergency medicine residency. I didn't get in. Find out later it was due to some things that were said about me from my program director had a similar.
[00:05:02] Speaker B: Experience too, where it just wasn't discussed at all. Brought up and reading your. Your posts that on LinkedIn, I was like, wow, she's very brave. But so many people go through this and we put up with it because we almost feel like we have to graduate and things like that. And it's, it's sad, you know, because this, this is illegal, right? Like, a lot of the stuff that goes on should, would just not be permitted anywhere else. And if you were in a normal job, you would just quit, be like, well, you know, I'm just quitting. I'm not putting up with this. Like, you know, after graduation, that. That's pretty much what I do. If I don't like the workplace, if it's not fixable, that's. That's just generally the answer. But as a resident, you're still a student, and you're still not really done with your journey, which has been very long so far. So most people are kind of. They feel forced to just continue, basically, with that sort of abuse. Yeah.
[00:06:02] Speaker A: And I've actually gotten, you know, as you mentioned the post, like, I'm pretty open about this stuff. I'm not really fearing retribution, although, you know, they could come after me, I guess, for disparaging their program. But I think a lot of people who go there, like even former attendings people, have reached out to me, and they're like, we know what happened to you. Like, everybody knows what happened to you. And it was disgusting and it was terrible, and it happened. Everybody let it happen.
And so it's like, there's enough people who know who saw what happened, so I don't feel like that would be an issue.
[00:06:35] Speaker B: Right.
[00:06:35] Speaker A: But there's always that part of you, like, is it me? Am I the one who's messed up? Did I fail somehow? And I hear that from other individuals who reach out to me, like, they're trying to switch residency programs, and their, you know, current program is, you know, sending letters to the board so they can't get a license in another state. They're sending letters to other programs so the person can't continue their training.
So when people tell me, like, oh, you're such a contrarian in health care and to start independent practices or to say to go against the grain or not take insurance, and, you know, it was a choice I had to make in residency to get out of a situation that was harmful to me. And it set me up for not being able to take insurance or get another job within the system.
And I did kind of understand the repercussions at the time. Maybe not fully. Right. Like, I didn't understand it.
Had.
[00:07:29] Speaker B: I actually understood. And I think they do that on purpose because you won't understand until much after the fact how. How damaging this can be. Did you get an attorney for all that that you went through?
[00:07:43] Speaker A: So, not at the time. It was, like, an interesting situation where by the time I feel like I got confirmation that what had happened was illegal and wrong, and it was like, seven years Eight years after the fact, I just wanted to go on with my life. Honestly, I was, like, so over it, and I wanted to create something bigger and better for myself, and I did, you know, So I think by the time someone reached out to me, I was kind of at the point where they did. They connected me. They're like, my friend's a lawyer, and you need to talk to him. And his response was like, sorry, this happened eight years ago. You're kind of outside of the statute of limitations, and there's probably no record or evidence of anything that happened anyway, aside from people willing to talk about it, if there were people willing to talk about it. So I think, like, in my situation, we were. We were outside of the purview. If there's any lawyers listening and they feel like they want to pursue this, I think mostly I've at this point, volunteered to stand up for anyone else. This is happening too, right? So people reach out to me and they want to know. I say, you know, act quickly. Let's get you connected with somebody who can help you, because the sooner you act, the better. Again, for me, it was more about just feeling empowered to no longer let their narrative control my life. Right. Like, it was finding out that you have all these things that you could totally feel shame about, and you could not put yourself out there and think that all of these terrible things were actually wrong with you and that they were right, and you're damaged, you're broken. Right. And no one else should work with you or accept you, and you shouldn't be a leader because, like, who would want to be led by a person like you? All of those things stop us from acting. Right. They stop us from going out there. The narratives that they tell us when we want to start private practices, that we're greedy and we don't know what we're doing, and, you know, like, what we're saying is somehow damaging to patient care. And, like, all of the things that I hear from doctors and things that I heard myself when it comes to running a private practice, it's hurting us, and it's holding us back.
[00:09:53] Speaker B: Yeah, I had, like, very. And I'm also emotionally scarred, and I didn't realize how damaging the repercussions were going to be. And I want to say I do have attorneys now. I think it's a must to have one.
The more you have to risk, the more you. You need help like that. And now I've just kind of learned it's better to extinguish these things early versus later. You know what I mean? Before they kind of snowball. And, yes, I've had things occur to me, and I wish I could make them go away, but it's kind of too late for that now. And at one point, people didn't even think I would just make it. Like, I remember I was just a couple years from graduating, and I'm a dermatologist now. I have my own practice. I think I'm the only one in my residency class with their own practice.
Actually, nobody else has their own practice. Everyone is, I think, an employee somewhere else, but.
And I was even told, yeah, you're not going to make it. Try something else like family medicine, or here's a list of doctors where you could just be an assistant for them. I mean, that's literally how little people thought I would succeed. And I would say I'm more successful than even my graduating class at this time, even though I don't like comparing myself to other physicians. But, yeah, there's definitely needs to be some light on just the abuse that happens in residency, because I think people have gotten away with it far too long and too far, you know, and if you don't really talk about it on social media or online, people would have no idea, you know, this. This was really. I had no idea how bad this could get or the consequences. Like what you're talking about with the board and people sending letters to the board. I mean, that's just setting you up for failure, you know, have to be prepared to tackle it. And they also have unlimited resources as well, because they'll use attorneys from whatever program or whatever hospital that's a nonprofit that doesn't pay any taxes, and you have to actually spend money from your pocket, you know, and you're already at a disadvantage from that. But, yeah, it sounds like you've been very successful regardless. Have you had a lot of doctors reach out to you about their residency experiences just from your.
[00:12:13] Speaker A: Yeah, I think there's been quite a few. And, you know, like you said, the hard thing about being a resident is that when people do start coming after you, you don't have resources. Right. Like, our residents are so underpaid, they barely have enough to live off of, let alone hire an attorney to protect themselves from these types of abuses and allegations. You know, there are programs unionizing, but even to that extent, I mean, you probably had a similar experience in that there was a lot of discrimination from other residents within my program. And so it's like, if you're the odd one out, you know, and I've heard this from residents too, is that typically every year in a lot of these programs, they just pick somebody to target and you, there's nothing you can do about it. Like they're going to target you. They put the sign on your back from the moment you got there and they're going to do everything they can to drive you out of the program. And you know, it's crazy to me that someone would say that especially like to you or to me when you're already in a highly competitive program or.
[00:13:19] Speaker B: When you have like a year left. I mean, I've been studying to be a physician probably since I was one. I even have a photo of myself and scrubs. It doesn't start in medical school, you know, you started in college at least a lot of us started in high school school doing programs and classes. So it's been kind of a lifelong journey that someone squash at the very end for nothing. But you know, like in your case, subjective reasons because obviously you didn't detach your own retina. That's not physically possible but.
And there's very little support, I think for physicians that go through health issues.
I'm surprised at how little support whether it's in residency or jobs.
I've been certainly been through some and that's why I'm actually partially self employed. Well, fully self employed is because, you know, if I need to take a day off, I just take it. I don't ask anybody.
I don't abuse of it. I go to the doctor way too little actually. But it's just very difficult to go through something difficult like what you talked about. I can't imagine childbirth or anything that's just more extended in time dealing with it and in residency as well.
[00:14:31] Speaker A: Yeah, and I've heard this from, from people who've had cancer. Right. And they're going through cancer treatment and their residency program is threatening to cut them and you're like, I have cancer and you're going to like cut me from residency. So I mean I was particularly appalled last week there was.
[00:14:51] Speaker A: Circulating on X from a physician who is also a senator in North Carolina, our congressman. And he was saying that physicians don't want to practice medicine anymore. So if you're in medical school. And he pulled some statistic that was blown out of proportion from an article that basically sampled international students, like a very small proportion of students in medical school internationally, not just in the US and he came up with a metric that 40% of students will not go into clinical medicine. And he made the assertion that if we don't practice medicine for at least, I think he said, like 15 years following graduation from medical school, that we should owe the federal government money back for the money they spend educating us. And I said, first of all, I think I'm about $300,000 in debt still to this day, 15 years post graduation to the government, you know, like, so I'm not sure where this refund is coming from, you know, but like to make that assertion that physicians who don't go into clinical practice are somehow like defective or ripping off patients or greedy. And he said there should be a better screening process to find people who actually care about other people. And I was just absolutely appalled and disgusted. And so were like hundreds of other physicians who were just like going mad about this. Pose for a variety of reasons, right? Like whoever thought that we'd have to defend ourselves, like, we're good people who care about others, who want to help people, and yet we're being demonized in the press and the media by a variety of different sources, whether it's make America healthy again to senators calling us out and people, you know, just in the media saying, like, well, it's the greedy doctor's fault. And at the end of the day, like, I feel completely attacked by that kind of stuff. It gets absolutely not the doctor's fault that we're in this, this whole quagmire of disgusting and poor health outcomes.
[00:16:53] Speaker B: I would say looking back, what I would do differently is I would have gotten an attorney. And because these things are very important, and I think with physicians as opposed to other professions, is you can have things happen in your career that follow you for life and they can have far reaching effects. Like the, what you're talking about with insurance, you know, credentialing, getting a job at a hospital, your license, board certification, all these other things that you just really have no idea, you know, and these people know that, but you know very little of that at the time. And they just really take advantage. And people can be mean and pick on a resident and things like that, the weak one or the nice one in residency, or the one that's least likely to fight back. But I've kind of learned that you kind of have to fight back early and just really not put up with it, you know, as much as possible. But who would have, like you said, the resources and residency to do that? Nobody does. You know, at least in my resident residency program, I remember I even asked if I could work somewhere else for additional paying. Then I, you know, very innocently brought the proposal to my program director, and she just flat out ignored it.
You basically were not allowed to have another job.
You're just not, you know, and it's. It really sets you up for, you know, for not being able to earn your potential or reach your. Your full earning potential, and you can't work anywhere else. So then you're kind of at a disadvantage when you have to pay thousands of dollars of attorney fees, because you probably can't do that in that stage.
[00:18:39] Speaker A: No. And so far, I haven't found, you know, as far as, like, any groups or people, you know, working together to try and find a way to help residents with attorney fees. Right. Like, I think that there is space there for us as physicians to. To stand up for residents, to. To create potentially a fund to help people with the help of, like, good attorneys who can figure out, you know, which of these cases can we help, which of these things can we actually do something about? And a lot of cases, like you said, it's so opaque, right? Like, you can't even get any information about it. I know. I was trying to help a resident recently and even just reaching out to my contacts on the medical board, like, saying, like, do you guys. Do you know what's happening? Because she doesn't know. Like, she got a letter and they're like, oh, no. Like, her case has to be discussed and she has all the information that she's allowed to have. And it's like, well, how is she supposed to defend against allegations that are being made against her if she's not even allowed to see what the allegations are? Yeah, that's ridiculous. Like, these should not be closed. The same thing with the allegations made against me in these letters of recommendation. Right? Letters of recommendation are sealed. You never see them. You drop off your requests with trust that that person has your best interest in mind and is actually going to write you a recommendation letter. Not a dis. Recommendation letter. Right. And to find out, I think in my case, it was like five years later, and I didn't even again, know the specifics of it, but it was from a chief resident in emergency medicine at our own home program. And he's like, do you know why you didn't get in? It's like you had the top scores. Like, you're a highly qualified candidate. You had three years of surgical training, including trauma.
Like, you were like, a gold candidate. He's like, do you know why you didn't get in? And I was like, well, no. I mean, I. I just figured it was, like, not my time you know, I don't know. Like, I kind of just kind of go with the flow. I'm a go with the flow kind of person.
And he's like, no, he was like. Dave basically wrote a letter about you that made it sound like if any program took you, they would be taking on, like, extensive liability and a dangerous candidate and somebody who could harm people.
And I was like, what?
Like.
[00:20:59] Speaker A: To me, that, like, someone would make those kind of claims. Again, like, you said that that damages the rest of my career. Like, I could have gone on to not been able to get any job, to not be able to pay. Pay off my huge amount of debt that I took on, like, undergraduate and medical school, you know, to have basically, like, thrown away my 20s with.
You know, I'm like my last year.
[00:21:27] Speaker B: Of fertility at this point.
[00:21:30] Speaker B: And I just. I didn't even realize it. I was like, oh, my God, how did this happen? I'm almost 40, and it's. It's because I actually been working so long, I didn't notice, like, time's up, you know.
Yeah, that's pretty sad. I would ask for. I mean, if you can get the copy of it. And.
Yeah, once you threaten litigation, unfortunately. And my dad always. He's very much against this. He talked to people because, you know, they're people. And unfortunately, there's certain people you just can't talk to. They. They don't know what diplomacy is or how to be a normal person.
In the case of your retina, how to respond to, like, a normal human, you know, health issue that we're trained to respond to many times for other people, but that can also happen to us.
And once you threaten them, and unfortunately, I hate doing that, it's very expensive. But a lot of times problems go away. It's just kind of been used as a tool, and it's expensive to do that. And then, of course, at this stage, I've just felt like I've sacrificed so much for my career that I'm not even just okay with that. The next time it happens, I'll actually be filing a lawsuit. Just not okay with even just sending a letter of. A threatening letter from an attorney. It has to actually be farther than that. I think the pain and suffering have been too much. They've just kind of cost me my fertility.
[00:22:55] Speaker A: No, I completely understand that, you know, and I think people can take action at that point, like, listening to you and what happened to me, like I said, in my case, it was too late because I didn't know. And honestly, like, my own inner voice would have been like, oh, just move on. Just, you know, just forget about it. Just don't, don't bother with it. Like hold your head high and do the self work and the self care, you know what I mean? And just like ignore the haters when like, this is so much bigger than that. And I think that if people can learn anything, like I said from what happened to me, it's like, act soon and act right away. You know, no matter the cost or consequences, the long term cost to you is going to be much, much greater, you know, financial costs, you know, alone of that. And the other, you know, thing I want to tell people is that like, so if you are in my position and it is past the time, but you feel like you're still carrying around like that pain and like that resentment and stuff like, that doesn't have to be your story, right, for the rest of your life.
And you were victimized, but you don't have to live in a victim mindset. You know, there's a group that was. They would talk about the three kinds of people, right? It's like victims, bullies and rescuers, right? And then that changed in another dynamic and victims can become creators and you can take what happened to you and you can make something of it. And that's where I get so much of, like my passion and my desire just to like call people out when I see it, right? Like, it's like, all right, I'm calling this out. This is bullshit. And we're going to talk about this and we're going to do something about it. We're going to act. We're going to create cooperatives that stand up for independent physicians. We're going to find a way to make this sustainable. We're going to make a better world for ourselves and for our patients. And. And then hopefully retroactively we can start to dismantle things like residency programs. Like, why should medical students only be allowed to receive their training and residency programs that are directed by hospitals that are basically indentured servitude, you know, that you can't get out of and you can't move forward from? Like, why can't we learn in practice with other physicians? Why is there no apprenticeship model? Like, why is there no other way forward for us? You know, you can say, oh, it needs to be consistent. There needs to be this and that. Like, there is a precedent for this. In fact, like most of human existence is the precedent for this. And you can say, like, medicine was not worse because of it. So not only can we take on the, you know, abuse and residency as it is right now by like speaking out and talking to people and creating more accountability in existing residency programs, I think we need to create alternatives because right now they have a monopoly on training and they know it and they have no incentive to do better.
[00:25:51] Speaker B: Well, it's just one sided, you know, and like you, I had actually very good scores and you know, I. I don't know why I had such a hard time. I think, you know, I was pretty naive and didn't know a lot about life and the repercussions and all that. But, you know, there was also a lot of racism and sexism and residency. We had a chief resident that he kept yelling. I mean, he yelled so loud that the wall shook and he had already been reported, but his brother was a professor and he had done this actually year before I even got there. And I was like, wow, you know, this is.
And you know, I said something about it and it was pretty much immediate retaliation. Actually. It wasn't just me, it was another resident who was actually fired for saying this.
They did a confidential investigation where nothing came out of it, but we actually don't even know the results. So you complain about things and then you get no closure as well, you know, and so it's. It's very painful and I think just it's almost embarrassing. I used to be embarrassed to talk about it. I really wanted to sweep it under the rug. Traumatized, because I think this kind of belonged more in a psychiatric office in a way, you know, because it's kind of PTSD to even talk about it. But the more people are aware of this, I think the less people are going to put up with it in the future. Now that there's a way to film stuff, you know, a way to actually document what's going on. Which I think back then I don't think iPhones were very popular or documentation wasn't as big as it is now.
I think if people see or know about this, they would be outraged about this actually going on. And a lot of, you know, these hardships are actually very subjective. They have nothing to do with grades, as in your case or in mine. Just really nothing to do with academics whatsoever. It was just, honestly, bad people crossing your path as a human and as a doctor and sometimes not having a way out.
How are they allowed to get away with that and, you know, almost ruin your career entirely?
[00:28:09] Speaker A: I'm so sorry. You know, all of this happened to you and it doesn't justify it to say, like, oh, well, look where you are now. Like, you're successful. Everything's great. And, you know, I'm like, yeah, that. That's great. I'm so happy that I, you know, pushed past this. That you pushed past this. That. Like, you had that, but you're still carrying around these deep wounds. And I remember every time I would talk about things early on, I would just shake. Like, my body would just shake and shiver. I was holding, like, so much trauma in my body that I just couldn't process it. To even, like, think back to some of the things that happened, or it's even down to, like, the things that you get commended for. Right? Like, one time, I worked for, like, 48 hours straight in the hospital. Like, I technically left.
I got in my car, and then I was called immediately back for, like, this horrible case that was coming from an outside hospital. I know surgical residents laugh about the outside hospital, but it happens all the time. And I was up all night stabilizing this person. We were in the or, we were in the icu, and, like, the attending was saying, you have to go home. Like, you. You've been awake too long. And as I was about to leave, my chief resident was like, no, like, you have to take. You have to watch the intern, and then you have to go to this case. And I was like, okay, I guess I have to go to the case. I go to the case. And it was the same attending who tried to send me home. And I'm standing there, and I'm falling asleep. Like, literally falling asleep standing up, because it was a fluoroscopic case and it was dark in there.
And he asked me a question. I'm like, you know, like, roused awake. And he was like, I have a lot of respect for someone who can sleep standing up and still answer questions on the fly. And I was like, this is ridiculous. Like, I am in this position where, like, I've been awake for so long, I can barely keep my eyes open, and I'm expected to respond to critical situations on the fly. And, like, everything we know about sleep deprivation says, like, you just can't do that, right? And then. Yet here we are rewarding that and rewarding people who can't control themselves emotionally and rewarding, you know, poor behavior in these programs and at the same time, being condescending towards people who are kind and caring and also questioning the, you know, existing paradigm and questioning why do we do the things that we do? I think I remember. You know, again, it's. I'm kind of always looking for. For examples of people who are excelling in the face of challenges or having to go outside of the box. And, you know, found out, like, Dr. Peter Attia didn't graduate from his residency. You know, he was just like, you know, I cannot continue in a system, in a system that doesn't question the existing paradigm. And when I do question things, like, I'm reprimanded and told that, like, just fall in line, just do what everybody else does. And I'm just not equipped to deal with that. So he left residency to go, you know, work at McKinsey and all of these great people who are doing great things.
Don't let the system define them.
[00:31:15] Speaker B: Right?
[00:31:16] Speaker A: Like, you are still better than they say you are. And it's really just coming to terms with that and coming back to yourself and realizing, like, you are strong, you are capable, and that is most likely the reason that you are targeted. Not because you're weak, not because you're deficient, not because you didn't know what you were doing. It's because you were better than everyone else. And they hate that.
[00:31:41] Speaker B: Yeah, I know. It's.
And you also Talked about on LinkedIn, because I'm pretty. I love LinkedIn, the hello, health space kind of pivoting a little bit. And I believe, just correct me if I'm wrong, but it was instance you had when you were working with a company and was it. They said that the doctor had something abandonment or something. Yeah, patience. What exactly.
What exactly was that, if you don't mind me?
[00:32:09] Speaker A: It's interesting to me because doctors, including myself, right, like, here I am out there telling people, like, start your own practice. Like, you can do it, be physician led, do everything that you can do within your own power. And yet I still fell victim to the, you know, MSO or, you know, practice management paradigm, where I am part of the medical group and we need this medical services organization in order to coordinate things and purchase things on our behalf and take in money and do all the things, and we should have a mutually beneficial relationship with that. Like, it should be like a symbiosis. Instead, you come to find out that these MSOs are taking everything and they're representing themselves as the entity of healing, as, you know, the one who's in the space taking care of people, and they actually own the patient relationships. And you're thinking, wait, what? That's not okay. How did they come to own these patient relationships? It's like, well, they own the documentation portal. They just kicked us all out of it.
When we said we didn't want their terms anymore, right, like they were greatly undervaluing us, they weren't fulfilling their end of the contract and they were withholding payments to the physician group when that contract came into question.
And we tried over months to renegotiate the contract with them and the deadline came and we said if there's no new contract, then this is done. Like we can't have a relationship anymore. As soon as we thought it was done, it was like boom. Like we were kicked out of our email of any kind of contact that we could have with the patients and we were sent letters saying that like if we did reach out to the patients then we would be like in violation of like a non compete and we'd be in violation of the non solicitation agreements and like all of this stuff. And like frankly, their lawyer is stupid and our lawyer is way better than theirs. Again, have a good lawyer because like the way that the things were written, like they have no grounds to stand on. So at the end of the day, like we're able to just move forward.
And again, like, shame on me for thinking that we could operate in a business arrangement with somebody who obviously only has their best interests in mind and not the best interest of the patients the way that the doctors do. Because if they understood like this and they had the best interests of the patients in mind, they would have allowed for continuity of care. They would have come to the bargaining table. Instead, they just went out and found some other doctor, whatever message board and was like, hey, this guy's our new medical director. He's going to take care of all of your patients. And there's no transition of care. Like there's no communication aside from the medical record. And you know, it was like, well, good luck to you. You guys don't own these relationships. We do. It was a shock to me, honestly, that that could happen. And I was angry.
And then the part like resentful, like, right. Resentment comes from a sense of powerlessness in the situation, of lack of communication, of, of knowing somebody is overstepping a boundary and hurting you, but just having absolutely no power to change this current situation. But at the end of the day, it's okay. I, I let that all go because I do have the power over one thing and I have the power over my ability to continue to practice medicine in a way that's fulfilling to me, that values me. I can continue to work with my same medical partners. Like all of the doctors are staying together, all the nurses.
We value ourselves and we value our own expertise and our experience and we can validate each other.
And that is a beautiful thing, right? And then to know that I wasn't alone, like, you know, we kind of all fell into this together and we're all going to go through and come out the other side together. And so that's something that I think it is invaluable for physicians to see other doctors having private practices, to know what's possible, to know where these pitfalls can happen when you make any kinds of contracts. And again, to have a lawyer look over contracts and make sure that the language is in your benefit and that you are able to move forward when something does happen.
Because, like, you see this all the time. Again, like nyan competes, non solicitation, all of that stuff that's in contracts and we signed them thinking like, well, I, I just, I really want to believe these best parts and I'm just gonna kind of ignore the parts that I don't like so much and I'm just gonna sign this and hope everything works out for the best. And like me, at least in my gut, it's like, oh, you know, this is not gonna work out for the best. And so it's all about like, trust your gut, trust your lawyer, and don't sign anything unless a lawyer reads it first.
[00:37:06] Speaker B: And they always try to stick something weird in these contracts too. That's just unfavorable.
How do you get paired with these telehealth companies? And do you think this whole MSO relationship is kind of destroying medicine? There's so many. It's kind of like skirting the principles of medicine and just, you know, people finding figureheads to just lead companies and they're not really aware of anything that's going on or. And then having somebody else make all the business decisions.
[00:37:37] Speaker A: I think again, it comes down to the messages that people feed us, right? Like we look at this organizations as, like I said, quote, medical services. So it's like, oh, I'm just a doctor, I can't do marketing. I think like the biggest thing I hear from doctors is, you know, who are starting private practices or afraid to take the risk and start a private practice. Like, where do I find patients, right? I'm going to take the risk. I'm going to open a clinic or even just my own telehealth business, right? And that's pretty low financial risk. Like, roll up a website for 500 bucks, pay a couple hundred bucks to your state for a PC or pllc, get a lawyer to look it over there's another couple hundred bucks, you know, and then the malpractice side again. You know, I know lots of resources, including our cooperative that can help physicians with low cost malpractice insurance, especially those just starting out who haven't built a practice yet in order to be able to afford the costs that come along with these things and just taking some of that financial risk out of it.
And even then they're just like, oh, but if I don't have any people sign up, I don't know how to find people. I can't market myself. And it's all of this is just coming back to again, this fear of being seen, a fear of failing. We've done everything to this point and we've been seeing super successful. And that's the overachiever's trap.
[00:38:53] Speaker B: Right.
[00:38:53] Speaker A: Like we are successful, we define ourselves by our success. And we think the minute that it's hard or we're challenged, if we're not as successful overnight like we see on TikTok or Instagram or something like that, we don't have a million followers, like we're going to fail. You don't need a million followers, you need maybe a hundred patients to pay you a reasonable cash price made and you can make good living that way. And it's so much more micro than people think. And it's really just adjusting our mindset around that and understanding that we don't need somebody else to do that for us. Like it is so much simpler, although it is not easy because it does require overcoming this shame and the fear and these, you know, negative messages that have been fed to us over the years.
[00:39:44] Speaker B: Yeah. And do you have your own practice now? Your own telehealth or in person practice?
[00:39:50] Speaker A: So I do. It's still, I guess by the time we launch this, it will be fully operational.
But we are in the process of launching right now. It is a precision medicine and performance practice.
So I work, you know, with men and women. I do a lot of hormonal management and treatment. We work with people to optimize nutrition. It is a fully cash based advanced concierge practice that really helps people look at the root cause of their disease processes and live a healthy and full life in every space. Mental, physical, emotional, spiritual. Like I'm getting my meditation teacher training right now and it's just one of those practices that comes entirely from my heart and it's authentic to me in the way that I want to care for people and something I never saw right in medical school training.
But I Want people to see that and to hear that and to feel that like you can have exactly the practice you pictured for yourself and it doesn't have to fall into one of these corporate buckets that we see available to us right now.
[00:40:56] Speaker B: Yeah.
And then is it online or in person?
[00:40:59] Speaker A: So it's 100% digital right now. There will be a top level tier though, or we're going to be coordinating hopefully some in person events for those patients.
Again, really just like White Glove, gold level service.
[00:41:13] Speaker B: What do you have to say? Because yeah, that was a fear for me. How do you basically get patients when you are starting out?
What would you say to physicians who are starting their private practice on that?
[00:41:26] Speaker A: It's all a process. I think I would say go out and figure out first of all, what are you really excited about because it's truly like that excitement in your practice that's going to draw patients to you. Second of all, know that there are patients out there who are looking for doctors right now, especially a doctor that they can have a relationship with. And so some just the simplest thing to do is just like put up a website, start blogging, link that website to all your socials and just start talking about what you're passionate about and people will find you. Right. Like there's probably a lot more I can do like from an organizational standpoint. And we're going to get to that I think as we launch. And there's also like 35 other doctors within my cooperative who are all in various stages of launching practices who probably have way better advice than I do. And I'm going to be, you know, relying on those people as well. Right. To ask them like what works for you.
We have a member, his name is Dr. Josh Engel. He has a really cool podcast called like youe First 100. So if anybody's looking for more tips on how to get those first 100 patients, I know he's interviewing docs about that as well. And he's one of our awesome co op members who launched his own practice again after finding the system just didn't work for him. So he's been really creative and finding things to do and I really applaud that. I applaud all of our members who are, you know, thinking outside the box.
[00:42:58] Speaker B: Yeah, I would love to join the cooperative as well. It sounds very, very interesting. However, you can keep me in the loop. I do a lot of telederm and telehealth. I do have an in person practice. I'm here right now waiting for the next patient, but it's always nice to know what other people are doing in telehealth and in private practice. Anything to make this process easier.
[00:43:22] Speaker A: Yeah, I agree.
[00:43:23] Speaker B: Thank you once again for joining us.
[00:43:25] Speaker A: Of course. Thanks, Anna. It was so good to meet you. And thank you for sharing your story as well. Like, it is really powerful for us to share our stories for other people.
