Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Once you start carving ivory, it's kind of hard to let go of. I. I used to carve a lot of wood, soapstone, different things, baleen and ivory. And when I started carving the hunting scenes and the jewelry, I haven't been able to let go of it. So there's something to it that once you start carving it, it stuck with you.
[00:00:16] Speaker B: Welcome to skin deep. I'm Dr. Anna Chacon, and today we have a very special guest joining us. Get ready for some expert insights you won't want to miss. Tell everybody a little bit about yourself, where you grew up. Alaska is very dear to me. I always tell everybody Alaska is my second home. I'll be to work there in March, and we've stayed in touch throughout the years. And I continue to buy your things because you're one of the best barbers I know.
[00:00:40] Speaker A: Thank you. Thank you.
[00:00:42] Speaker B: Of course.
[00:00:43] Speaker A: So my name is Leon, Ms. Kinnevak. As we said a while ago, I'm from Point Hope, Alaska, which the inac name is T Tikiga, or another term is Tigara. It's on the northwestern coast of the Arctic, west of Barrow. In your back. Carver. And I run a nonprofit called Alaska Art Alliance. I started carving at the age of seven with my uncle Jacob Lane. Back then, in the late 70s, you had guys working outside during the summers getting equipment ready for whale hunting or just carving in general.
Walrus ivory. And they had the older tools back then. We were allowed to sit there and watch them, you know, if they weren't too busy and we weren't on the way as kids.
My uncle kind of noticed I had an interest in it and pulled me aside and gave me some soap stone, a file. And my first carving was a seal, a little soap sewn seal. So it's always been kind of ingrained in me as a youngster, you know, to create with my hands and create as far as the culture goes and trying to share and. And express your culture through art.
[00:01:50] Speaker B: Well, thank you so much. And do you come from a family of carvers?
[00:01:55] Speaker A: My uncle Amos on my mom's side, Amos Lane. He passed away over a year ago. He's a famous carver. Nasu r, my cousin, she's very, very good jewelry maker and. And carver, and I think she sews, too. And then her brother Jed is a very famous carver also. So. Yeah. And then you have other carvers from Point Hope. No. Maria Gamble, Savunga, Barrow, Wainwright Point. Lay all along the coast. Even some of the alley carvers are. You know, you have some even down in the southeast area, there's some good carvers that carve ivory interior. So, yeah, 100 years ago, you would have seen a little ivory amulet used for hunting to invoke the spirit of whatever animal they were hunting. If I was hunting seal, I might have. Me and my wife might have a little seal amulet. And we focus on it, keep it with us and, or wear it, you know, and some hunting implements out of ivory. Nowadays we carve not only to share the culture carved as a source of income.
The main reason why we hunt is for, for the meat, subsistence. And the bone and the walrus ivory are a byproduct of that. So we, we try to. Try not to waste anything, try to utilize every part of the animal. So.
[00:03:19] Speaker B: And one thing I learned when I was working in Alaska, as you know, I was a dermatologist in Barrow for about two, three years, is that I believe only the Alaska natives are allowed to carve walrus ivory. Is that correct?
[00:03:35] Speaker A: There's a pre 72 act by the federal government that prohibits anybody to utilize walrus ivory. Unless you're Alaska Native and you hunt for the meat, then you can utilize the ivory. Anything pre 72, 71, 70, anybody can use. But anything after 72, you have to be Alaska native to be able to work with it, carve, or own it raw. There's a couple exceptions to where I've seen guys that they have these transport permits that allow them to, to buy the ivory transported to Anchorage and then distribute it among the natives that are non native. I think there's two of them that actively have that license. But yeah, it protects the animal according to fishing game. And the feds, they don't want over hunting or head hunting.
You know, people just hunting for the, for the ivory. Kind of like what was going on with the elephant, I guess in Africa. And they don't want that happening.
[00:04:34] Speaker B: So you need a special license, right, Issued by Alaska probably Wildlife.
[00:04:40] Speaker A: Not, not a license. You have to, you have to prove that I think you're, you're at least a quarter Alaska Native. So your BIA card or your regional card or your tribal, whatever tribe you belong to. And I think that they, if you live on the, the coastal part, but I think it's any Alaska native that can prove that they're at least a quarter native can work with the ivory.
[00:05:04] Speaker B: Is walrus ivory mostly an inupac thing, or is this something you find throughout all Alaska?
[00:05:11] Speaker A: We hunted up north for meat, and then we utilize the bone, the ivory, the car, make jewelry. 100 years ago, they were using a lot of it for tools and stuff like that. You have Siberian Yupicon, Gamble, Sagunga. That's their walrus ivory is. Is their like and walrus meat, that. That's their sustenance. And then the ivory is a source of income for them with their economy.
So it's like that for the Inupac. It's like that for a lot of the Aleut, I believe Bristol Bay, they. They utilize. Utilize a lot of ivory that they find on the beach. And, yeah, I know some Athabascans that carve ivory. Once you start carving ivory, it's kind of hard to let go of. I. I used to carve a lot of wood, soapstone, different things, baleen and ivory. And when I started carving the hunting scenes and the jewelry, I haven't been able to let go of it. So there's something to it that once you start carving it, it's. It's. It's stuck with you.
[00:06:14] Speaker B: Would you say that? And it sounds like you learned through family and culture, but is this something that is decreasing in popularity amongst the younger generation of Alaska?
[00:06:27] Speaker A: You don't see as many carvers. When I was young, you had almost a carver in every household in Point Hope. You know, even in other villages, there was somebody carving, whether it was ivory, whalebone, or, you know, baleen basket making. You had the woman sewing mukluks, pants, whatever, parkies, hats, gloves. And that was in the 70s, in the 80s also, a lot of carving. Gamble Savunga. It's almost every household still. I. I believe that has carvers. But, yeah, it's harder to get these younger kids into carving. Some of them will latch onto it, but you have to. I mean, you have to know the market. You have to be able to figure out your niche. You have to be able to sell. It's not just creating a piece and. And, oh, man, there's the money. It's a lot to it. So a lot of them get into it as a hobby, maybe, or, hey, I know how to carve. And I. They carve once in a while, you know, for us that I. I'm a carver. I carve daily, 365 days a year. It's a source of income. It's a tough gig. So, you know, and then you got technology and. And school and. And different dreams that Alaska Native kids have now. It's not just being a hunter or a carver anymore. Or now you have programs like ancep, which is a science program. Our son goes to that program, and he's 14, and he's going to UA College. Through that program, he's more into gaming. And, you know, I tried to sit him down one time and let him carve some soaps. Don't be like, I think I'm done. So, you know, it's. Yeah, it's definitely not. I was just having a conversation with a guy from Southeast. He came for the wholesale show, and he was looking for some ivory carvings, and he was having a hard time finding carvings this time of year.
So, yeah, you kind of said it right. It is not as predominant as. And. And a lot of people are doing a lot of jewelry. You know, there's some real good carvers that still do, you know, bigger pieces, larger pieces, but it's not in every household like it used to be. And, you know, it's harder to. To get some. Somebody to teach you too. It's not just finding the person to teach. It's finding somebody to teach you. And our shop downtown, we give them the space for free, the carvers. And we'll have some youngsters come in wanting to learn. You know, then they realize, oh, man, this is not. It's not an easy gig. You know, it's dusty, it's. There's no. No real source of income. Sometimes with it, you know, you spent. Sometimes you spend more than you. You earn buying the materials, the tools. You know, then you wait for a show or you wait for a season to start, and even then you end up getting caught up selling wholesale to a lot of the shops. And. And that's just kind of breaking even. So you have to kind of, you know, spread. Spread yourself out. And it's hard. Hard for me to say no to anybody when they want to order a piece. So I end up with like 20, 30 orders at a time, and I have to keep carving daily to get them done. Right now we're getting ready for kivia up and barrel. That's February 8th, I think, through the 15th. February 10th through the 15th, we'll be selling there.
[00:09:47] Speaker B: What is that exactly?
[00:09:50] Speaker A: It's the messenger feast up in Barrel. They. They have it every two years. I think they didn't have it during COVID but they're. They're starting to have it again. It's going to be through from the 10th to the 15th. A lot of dancing, a lot of villagers coming in from different villages with dance groups and some artists. And Barrel host that every. I think every two years.
[00:10:11] Speaker B: And is that when the darkness kind of ends? They kind of have that little.
[00:10:17] Speaker A: Around that time, I Believe. Yep. Yeah.
Yeah.
It's the Inupac way of bringing it. Getting rid of the old year, I believe, and bringing in the new year with the Kalukuk.
[00:10:29] Speaker B: Is that worth the big festival with Russia and Canada?
[00:10:33] Speaker A: Yeah, Canada, Russia, Po, Wainwright, all the villages on North Slope. And then I think King island shows up. I even think Gamble and Saunga show up once in a while.
Kotzebi, big event.
Barrel really fills up. It's hard to get a. Get a place to stay when.
When Kivik's happening. So you always have to kind of plan ahead, a few months ahead, try to get in there.
[00:11:00] Speaker B: Do you have any kids?
[00:11:01] Speaker A: So I was born in Kotzebue. For the first two years, I lived with my biological mom. She was young, running around, drinking, whatever. You know, the things you do when you're young. My grandma finally, after two years, said, hey, you need to send them to our relatives in Point Hope. So they send me to my adoptive parents, Leo and Marianne. My alchemistic was from Point Hope, and she had moved to Kotzebue, married my Charlie, who was from King island, and they lived in Kotzebue. So she had them send me there. My older sister was already sent there a couple years ahead of me to the same family. So we were raised in the same family, Kenneva and Lanes.
I went to school there. My dad was a whaling captain and a teacher. My mom ran a local.
They call it a work camp, but it had a restaurant with it, and she was a teacher with my dad, but they were both whaling captain and wife, and my dad was a cultural bearer. I started getting into carving at the age of seven.
We moved to Anchorage for a couple years around the age of nine. That was kind of my first real experience with the outside world. And, you know, it was interesting. We. We enjoyed it. Then we moved back home to Point Hope. I came back to Anchorage when I was 19, got into drinking, drugging. My dad and mom moved here to help my handicap brother. And I, you know, young. So I was out running around and acting stupid. I ended up incarcerated for 12 years, 12 and a half years. And I got back into carving while I was incarcerated, sobered up, been Sober for about 20, 21 years now. But, yeah, I put myself through the ringer as a youngster and, you know, had to learn a harsh lesson. I was in Arizona, incarcerated, Colorado, and then back in Alaska. And I really latched on to the native culture and carving when I was in there to try to build a future outside of prison. Then I got out of prison, about 500 and some baleen etchings, a little bit of jewelry, and went down downtown fourth Avenue trying to sell. And it was tough. You know, it was a tough. It was one old Asian man in his storefront. It was kind of like a trading post. And he found out I was from Point Hope. He said, hey, I'll give you some carving space. I knew Alan Lane, which was my uncle. He carved here before. And there was about three or four carvers in the back. And I carved there for a few months, and I bought my own little shop. It was a little trailer that I carved out of for about a year, and then I went back and. And carved there and ended up purchasing the place. And we created 23 carving stations, started giving space to Alaska Natives from around the area.
Some of them struggling with homelessness, addiction, reentry from incarceration, or just coming from the village, you know, trying to move to the city. One thing about Alaska Natives is, you know, some of them might not have no work history, but they can. They can create, they can carve. A lot of the women can sew, weed, you know, so it's instilled in them, a lot of them at a young age. So that was kind of our niche, was to create a free space and just try to give back to the community. I ran around downtown Anchorage causing a lot of trouble as a youngster. So they're trying to. Trying to give back and trying to help where I can.
[00:14:42] Speaker B: Yes. I do also notice working in Alaska, I feel like sometimes the villages are getting smaller and the city's getting bigger, and kind of these beautiful villages are, you know, they're hard to live in sometimes for. For people like me that come from the city, that could be really tough.
Do you feel like they're growing or they're shrinking? And how does that impact carving?
[00:15:07] Speaker A: Some of them are kind of stabilized. When I was growing up in Point Oak, we were at, like, a little over 300. I think it's at over 900 now, but it hasn't. You know, a lot of them move out, go to college, move to Anchorage. Some villages have really gotten small out of. A lot of villages have. Have lost a lot of their, you know, people either moving or passing away, moving to the city, hoping for something else. And, you know, then sometimes some of them end up incarcerated or homeless. There's that kind of a gap. When. I know, when we moved to the city when I was nine, my dad worked on the slope, but when he didn't have that job on the slope. It was, it was a tough, you know, it was pretty tough where my mom had to go to work to help. And it's not always an easy gig in the city, especially if you don't have no work history, no rental history, you don't have no lot. Some guys have no, no credit at all. So you know, they, they come to the city with good intention and end up sleeping on somebody's couch or worse, end up in a homeless shelter or a homeless camp. So we try to provide that space for them. And guys coming in for medical, we try to provide the space so they can carve alder here. I talked to some of the younger natives around downtown area, ask them where they're from. So there are a lot of younger people moving from the village to the city or here for medical or coming out of prison. End up being paroled to Anchorage or Fairbanks. Larger hubs where they do have parole officers. There's a lot. Yeah, we've got a big, big community here in Anchorage of Alaska natives.
[00:16:56] Speaker B: Do you hunt?
[00:16:57] Speaker A: I used to. I grew up whale hunting with my dad and uncarable aunties.
I can't right now. I'm, I'm on parole for another 14 months. Then I'll be able to try to get my hunting rights back. Subsistence hunting. I plan on going down the highway towards Barrow and hunting caribou and maybe go back home and help run my dad's whaling crew if I'm, I'm not too old by that time, you know. But yeah, I, I, I was a hunter with my dad and them. I kind of, kind of missed that. I think that's where I'm really into the carving. I do a lot of hunting scenes. I know you bought a little hunter bracelet.
[00:17:37] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. I love your, I love your stuff. Of course it's very special and just you don't see stuff like that every day. And I think you've been at, you've exhibited at several festivals, right? Even one in Arizona.
[00:17:51] Speaker A: I think I've done international carbon competition in Arizona. It's Santa Fe Indian Market.
[00:17:58] Speaker B: That's a, yeah.
[00:17:59] Speaker A: The largest Native American Indian market in the world.
I placed first place there. Best of class. Judges choice, stuff like that with my pieces. And then the herd museum is, is just as big as that when it's in Arizona. And that's the herd Indian market. It's part of the herd guild and the herd is a museum, Native American museum. So we go there and I've placed first judges choice, got a cultural award. They're competing against lower 48 Indian artists. And, you know, trying to break into that. You spend $10,000 getting there, and then you hope you make enough sales to at least make it home, you know, and we always. We always do. Okay. It's more for me, kind of sharing the culture and. And trying to see where I'm at as an artist, not just in Alaska, but internationally. And I was invited to Russia about five years ago, but because of my legal status, I couldn't go. So we sent a couple guys from our carving shop, and one of them got first place there.
[00:19:07] Speaker B: Wow.
[00:19:09] Speaker A: He placed first. And all our guys, him and the lady that escorted him, brought a lot of our pieces. And we placed. I guess Putin and his people judged and put it all in a book, all the art that was there, and we placed in the top 200, all our carvers. So that was good for us. We were happy with that. But it's. It's not an easy. You know, you see a lot, even a lot of the good carvers end up finding something else to do at times because, like, right now it's. There's no, you know, no sales. My sales come from people like you.
I have fans.
Yeah.
[00:19:47] Speaker B: Unique fans.
[00:19:48] Speaker A: Yeah. I have to go knocking on the native corporations doors to sell some of the carvings that I buy from the guys at the shop. But other than that, there's no real market right now. We got the Ferrandi coming up. That'll be a good, good influx of people coming to Anchorage and watching. The dog races will be set up at the Diamond Mall end of February. I don't think we're going to the herd this year. We're going to do the. The Lucy Jensen art show at the Diamond Mall this year just to kind of help our guys make some sales and set up for them. And some of our artwork also.
[00:20:22] Speaker B: Yeah, I bought from your family, too, I think two of your cousins.
[00:20:26] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:20:27] Speaker B: I didn't really know that they were related to you, but. Yeah, Blaine.
[00:20:33] Speaker A: Okay. So my mom. My mom's dad was Jacob Lane, and my uncle Jacob Lane is who I learned from.
Her dad is Alan. My mom's, I think, like, first cousin.
Yeah. Their dads were brothers, so yeah, she's like my second cousin. And then her brothers carve also. And there's my Uncle Amos. He passed away, but he was a good carver also.
[00:20:59] Speaker B: And you teach carving? Do you teach carving?
[00:21:02] Speaker A: I taught last year at ua.
I taught carving classes there. They have native culture studies, and I think part of it is, is the arts. So they. They brought Me there a couple times. I taught for a couple weeks.
I teach over at the Heritage Center. Once in a while I'll teach at our shop. When somebody says, hey, I want to learn carving, I'll take some time with, you know, some of them to do that. And then I travel to Barrow and traveled to Wainwright. Taught there. So, yeah, I'm always open to teaching. It helps me to learn more and hone my own craft when I am able to teach. It kind of reminds me of. Of the different techniques.
[00:21:44] Speaker B: Are there different styles of carving?
[00:21:47] Speaker A: Yeah, definitely. Gamble Savunga. They have a. Their, their carvings are very detailed, very precise.
You know, the animal is a seal is a seal to the point where it's like, man, wow. And then you've got a lot of older carvers that do kind of relief carving, totemic kind of, you know, well, well, totem, like the King island style or masks.
The baleen baskets were a big thing in Point Hope Barrel. A lot of the animal carvings and the more detailed carvings with ivory Gamble Sabunga gnome, Point Hope, too. But yeah, you can. After being around certain carvers, you can. You can tell the different styles.
[00:22:31] Speaker B: Can you show some of your work what you have in your shop?
[00:22:35] Speaker A: Right now? I'm. I don't know if you could see that.
[00:22:38] Speaker B: Oh, the glasses. Goggles.
[00:22:40] Speaker A: Yeah, goggles.
And then a pair of snow goggles. I'm doing some coins for one of the corporations. And then this is kind of a. I have some walrus heads I'm doing down there on the floor. I'm doing some boats.
I've got some polar bear claws that I'm capping.
[00:22:59] Speaker B: Oh, my gosh.
[00:23:00] Speaker A: Grimshaw of seal hunter and a lady ice fishing that's going to be on a head mound, you know, doing a lot of. A lot of different projects. I don't know if you could see those goods, but, yeah, constantly I've got like 30 projects going.
Yeah.
[00:23:16] Speaker B: Wow. Oh, my gosh. Well, this is so exciting.
[00:23:20] Speaker A: Yeah. It's always, you know, and we live in a triplex, so my shop is the middle unit. We live in the other unit and then our kids live in the other unit, the older kids. So. And then I've got the shop downtown. I'll be heading that way. Once I'm done here working with the guys there, go clean up some ivory and see what they're up to. Right now it's pretty slow, so you kind of go there and. And work with them. And, you know, it's always when I'm there, I'm A carver. I'm not really the owner. I try not to perceive myself as the owner there. I, the guys run the shop, I help run it, I pay the bills through grants we get. But yeah, I always love going there and, and interacting with the guys and 4th Avenue, downtown. 4th Avenue is a big mixture of people and some homeless, some people that downtown doing business. So it's a big mixture and always interesting to head that way and go carve there at the shop. So.
[00:24:21] Speaker B: Oh, excellent. Well, thank you so much and thank you.
No, no problem. Thanks for being here. I, I was going to say that even if I worked in Alaska for three years, it is very difficult sometimes to have someone open up about this.
[00:24:40] Speaker A: Yeah, I was the same way before. I ended up incarcerated. Very.
I don't know if you call it introverted. Didn't want, want to say much. Didn't, you know, it's tough for some Alaska natives and I'm always talking to my seven year old, trying to keep him, you know, talking that way. He's, he's not too shy or. But in our culture you didn't have much to say. Your actions really spoke, you know, with the hunting and you heard a lot. When I was growing up, you heard a lot of the woman talking. The guys were always talking about hunting but. And then 9 out of 10 times they were quiet working on stuff and so. Yeah, so you know, growing up as a new pack, I really had to find my, my voice around non natives, especially in the prison system. I really had to learn how to communicate and interact. And so it's, it's always. And people perceive that as a weakness sometimes. Oh, these guys are quiet, they don't think much, you know, and then it's the total opposite. You know, our people are pretty strong. People endured a lot, you know, lived up in the Arctic for thousands of years and went through a lot of interaction with outsiders. That devastated Point Hope had I think about 5,000 people at one time.
And then interaction with the Yankee Whalers and other people. The disease, you know, that we weren't around came in and kind of wiped us out a little bit out of the alcohol and there was some fights and stuff like that.
So if you haven't been around Alaska data think well and if they don't interact with you too much, it means that, it doesn't mean that they're just kind of cautious, they're leery, but if they start joking around with you and really teasing and interacting, then they're, you know, that's when you know, wow.
[00:26:37] Speaker B: Well I feel very accepted amongst the Alaska natives. Yeah, it took a while, but, you know, eventually some warmed up to me. And I remember before I accepted my first job in Alaska, looking it up online and thinking, if these people can live in this condition, they can live through anything.
[00:26:58] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah, it's a tough. Yeah, it's a tough, tough people. When I. We go to Barrow every year, we hardly ever go back to point zero, but we go to bear a viewer. And I'm always reminded of. Especially when we go into middle of winter when it's dark and cold, I'm like, boys are tough people.
It's a tough life. But it's a good life, too, though, you know, quiet.
[00:27:23] Speaker B: Some of the best food I've had.
[00:27:25] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. So you. You've eaten a lot of the Inupac food.
[00:27:29] Speaker B: Yeah, I've had whale. I've had raw whales. Whale. Whale soup. Well, thank you. And thank you.
[00:27:35] Speaker A: Thanks for inviting us.
[00:27:37] Speaker B: Of course. And thank you for sharing your story.
[00:27:40] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:27:40] Speaker B: And I look forward to seeing whatever designs you come up with. And I'm sure our viewers will learn so much from this.
[00:27:48] Speaker A: Thank you. Thank you.
[00:27:49] Speaker B: And I'm on Facebook.
[00:27:50] Speaker A: Facebook under Ms. Kinnevak and Ms. Acuna. Back Art. And then Alaska alliance is also on Facebook.
I'm open to sharing my carvings, the culture, you know, anything I can to promote not only Alaska Native carvers, but Alaska in general. Alaska Natives in Alaska.
[00:28:09] Speaker B: Awesome. And our viewers can always order from you online, like I do.
Yeah, yeah.
[00:28:15] Speaker A: I'm simple. If you find me on Facebook, you could message me and say, hey, what do you have? And I can send photos, or you can see. You could go through my photos on Facebook to see what artwork I've done and say, hey, can you make this again? And yeah, I'm always open to that. So it's. It's my livelihood.
[00:28:32] Speaker B: So have a great weekend, and thank you for dedicating time to us and for accepting this opportunity.
[00:28:40] Speaker A: Thanks.
[00:28:40] Speaker B: And for telling your story.
[00:28:42] Speaker A: Thanks for the opportunity and thanks for your continued support.
